I think it’s safe to say that many people who don’t attend church or want to hear about Jesus have something in common. Their commonality is the agreement that people who go to church are judgmental. I can see where they're coming from and they're not alone. I must say even church people judge other church folk. I’ve seen church leaders ambush others with subjects, remarks, lessons or advertising that generates shame or guilt. So not only do people judge people outside the church but also inside the church. It’s Romans 12 that says “It’s not our job.” Shouldn't this scripture remove the judgement load from us? I’m glad I don’t have to issue a judgment when someone screws up. I can love them, right? Judge not lest you be judged, right? I should be myself and no one else, right?
I am asked to follow or be Christ like. Did Jesus judge? Nope, I don’t think so! He did “love”, however. So hey church folk lets stop it with the judging. Quit the ambushes of guilt and shame too. Do you see yourself as a leader. If so, look around is anyone following you or your teaching? One last thing; try not to think one person should be regarded as churchier than another. We should be who we are in Jesus only not someone elses rightousness. -chuck
I am asked to follow or be Christ like. Did Jesus judge? Nope, I don’t think so! He did “love”, however. So hey church folk lets stop it with the judging. Quit the ambushes of guilt and shame too. Do you see yourself as a leader. If so, look around is anyone following you or your teaching? One last thing; try not to think one person should be regarded as churchier than another. We should be who we are in Jesus only not someone elses rightousness. -chuck
14 comments:
wow thanks pastor. i'm so glad you started new faith and teach us not to be the judge but love. at new faith i do feel the love and freedom. thanks cm
Pastor Chuck,
I have admit I'm fascinated by you. I don't mean to be insulting, but I wonder how much time you actually put into studying the Scriptures.
I tried, but could not find anywhere in Romans 12 that we were told it was "not our job" to judge as you blithely assert.
Could it be that you meant Romans 2:1? That seems to fit your point more. A little dislexia, perhaps? But even in this case, you'll see that Paul is speaking against hypocrisy, not the act of judging.
If you examine the context of the verse you quoted "Judge not lest ye be judged" (Jesus said that in Matthew 7) you'll see that Jesus is not condemning judgment, but hypocrisy. In fact, our Lord goes on to say that after you remove the log from your own eye, it's okay to help your brother with the splinter in his. That requires some judgment, in case you missed it.
And you say that Jesus didn't judge? Sure he did. He called Herod "that fox" and he called the Pharisees "whitewashed tombs". He told the woman taken in adultery to go and "sin no more". Sounds like righteous judgment to me.
Which brings me to my last point, gentle Jesus meek and mild did tell the people to "judge with a righteous judgment". Check your Bible. He really did. Here, I'll even give you the passage - John 7:24
You're correct Romans 2:1 does speak about judgment. I used Romans 12 to stress love and honor instead of persecution and curse. Sorry if it didn't come out the way I wanted.
Iagree with the points that Jesus does qualify as a judge. Still not convinced that we should judge. Others I mean. Maybe I didn't explain that part. Though I think maybe Jesus was giving a statement about their condition rather than passing them off as hopeless. Especially the lady he asked to go and sin no more. I think this was an issue of grace rather than a judgment of no worth. Consider the people that brought her to Jesus. Ask what would you have done? Throw the rock down or throw it at her? I think the people were ready for her judgment to be executed.
Could John 7:24 be referring to the scriptures before it? Could it mean that we should reconsider what we believe in more? Jude rather if we want the teaching and traditions of men or the actions, teaching and freedom that Christ brings?
You okay anonymous? Your sentences have an angry tone.
Helpful hint "Dyslexia”. Peace.
Thanks for the spelling tip. I hate it when I mess up like that.
But, more to the point, how do we share the gospel with someone without first judging that they are lost?
Or how do we cast out the immoral brother without first judging that he is immoral? And how do we welcome him back without first judging that he has repented?
The Scriptures tell us to restore a brother caught in sin - doesn't that require a certain amount of judgment? Don't we have to look at the situation and determine that the brother is in sin? Notice also that the passage says to do this gently and with humiity recognizing your own weaknesses. This is "righteous judgment".
Jesus said to first remove the log from your own eye, then you will be able to help your brother with the speck in his eye. The issue, again, is not judgment (a certain amount of judgment is required to help your brother with his "speck")but hypocrisy.
Judging is necessary. I think you automatically apply a negative connotation to the word. Perhaps the word "discerning" would be better.
Sorry for the angry tone in the first post.
You wrote: But, more to the point, how do we share the gospel with someone without first judging that they are lost? --We should share it with everyone not just the lost
I think there are different forms/meanings of judging.
-Passing a legal sentence
-Making a careful assessment/estimate
While making a careful assessment love should be the catalyst. I still don't think it's our job to pass a legal sentence on anyone. I'm not posting these things to tick you or anyone else off. I'm posting this as a "thought" to why I think non-church people don't like church-people. After speaking to several they feel a legal sentence has been passed on them and if they don't automatically conform to certain thoughts then they are not accepted.
I like the dialogue. So maybe the thought should be if we want to share the gospel with the lost/saved don't do it while passing a legal sentence rather with love.
You wrote: Sorry for the angry tone in the first post. --Still sounding a little angry. It's okay, so please don't judge me. :)
Okay, I won't judge you. But I will use the gift of discernment to check your teachings against the scriptures - like the noble Bereans in Acts 17:11.
Hey, weren't they being judgmental against Paul?
And yet the Scriptures call them noble . . .
Hey Anonymous.
You can use your gift that�s cool. You say my teachings like I can give a full teaching in just a couple of paragraphs. These are just thoughts anonymous. If I teach anything it's the Chirst-like love and honor. Please make sure the discernment isn't judgment in disguise. :)
Not sure if the group from Berea were judging though I think they were digesting his words to make sure that added value. Not sure about the judging. Sure you be like the group from Berea. Please re-read your other posts. Personally I felt an attack like the Thessalonians did to Paul. They were very agitating and were stirring things up. May I suggest calming down a bit? The dialogue flows better for me. I mean don�t you think its easier for you your name is anonymous. But that�s why some blog and some judge. Oops sorry. Some give mandatory constructive comments. Thanks for the input Anonymous.
By the way Imust know you or how would you know I'm a Pastor? Peace. -chuck
Chuck,
I admire you sticking to your guns - you're right, it' pretty easy for someon named "anonymous" to say anything inflamatory and get away with it.
I do have a question, though. You said that we should share the gospel with everyone, not just the lost. What is the gospel, in your estimation?
I believe the gospel is the good news or glad tidings.
Still I must know you or how would you know I’m a Pastor.
I don’t know a Pastor named Kip. I’m assuming your real name is Pastor Kip.
We've never met, but the first post identifies you as a pastor.
Plus I read some of your posts over at Margaret Feinberg's site where you identified yourself as a pastor.
The gospel is the good news of what?
Cool.
I get the feeling that you are leading me down a path with the never-ending questions to ambush me.
Do you seriously want to know what I think? Do you want to know to see if you can change your thoughts? Are you trying to learn something from me?
Anyway, the Gospel of:
Christ, God, the Kingdom, salvation and I'm sure there are many more.
I'm honestly not trying to ambush you. I do want to know what you believe and are teaching you congregation (not that you're accountable to me, you're definitely not). I consider you a friend, though I've been unreasonably harsh and for that I apologize.
But, I'm extremely interested in what pastors are teaching across the country because this affects the direction of the church.
I'm concerned that in the other thread we have going on ("Yoked"),you said that you ". . . refuse to announce, imply or suggest anyone will go to hell." Yet, when I ask you about the gospel, you mention that it has to do with salvation.
This begs the question, salvation from what? If you refuse to warn the lost about the dangers of hell, how are you convincing anyone they need to get saved? What does "getting saved" mean at your church?
A truly loving ministry doesn't ignore the danger of eternal hell, it warns of it and offers the "good news" of salvation through Jesus Christ.
Good question and I see why you would need to ask it.
I do say there is heaven and there is hell. I lean more toward heaven when I speak. At New Faith we are considered a recovery church. So almost everyone has already lived what the feel is hell here on earth. We emphasize a life recovery from all things that are hell related and will potentially put us back in that hell whether here or in eternity. We focus on recovery as we read the Christ is restoring all things. We feel that he is restoring our lives and therefore we speak that we should accept everything about the Trinity including values and principles that lead us through this alien life and then into eternity. We accept that our eternity is saved when we accept Christ, His work and why He was made manifest (destroy the works of the devil). Hope this clears more up.
Caution: You wrote "A truly loving ministry doesn't ignore the danger of eternal hell, it warns of it and offers the "good news" of salvation through Jesus Christ." Why imply that we're not loving? I think a truly loving ministry gives a balance and rightly divides Gods inspiration. Maybe there are "truly loving ministries" that are leading many people to Christ without the emphasis on hell. Why set your thoughts into a mold. I think with God all things are possible. Did the man on the cross know anything about hell?
Coming from several different church backgrounds, and knowing a lot of people, I can say this for sure. Everyone knows about God and the Devil and Heaven and Hell. If they don't I don't know how. They just have their own opinions on it all based on their experiences in life. People have been told about God's righteous judgment and wrath. That's all some people know. As a minister, I believe it is important to share God's love. This is something many people have NOT seen... Especially through us.
New Faith's vision is to re-draw this skewed vision of God with the flyswatter.
Jesus had an interesting approach:
- The people he met were met with love, compassion, and hope.
- The people that were supposed to be speaking on God's behalf were met with strong correction. They should have known better.
I don't see this as judgment because Jesus was able to look into the very heart and see the motive. That's not judgment, that's knowledge.
We can only assume. That's why we tend to judge... or even Pre-judge.
I personally see judgment as a prideful thing. Almost as if to say, "I've arrived, now let me make you more like me." And we do. Yuk.
I prefer this... I'm broken, but I know the healer. If you're broken too, I can introduce you to Him. We can heal together.
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